Bryan教授2014年赴北京大学的讲座海报

（张贴在他办公室外）

1. Eric事件与爱尔兰移民政策的修改

樵北：我想从最近的案件说起，Eric，一个出生在爱尔兰的9岁华裔男孩上个月与他中国国籍的母亲一起受到了驱逐出境的威胁。(Bryan：我知道这个案子)您对这个案子有什么看法?从您的角度来看，造成这个案件的社会或政治原因是什么?

 I want to start with the current case, the case of Eric and nine years boy who was born in Ireland was threatened last month with deportation along with his Chinese mother. (I know this case) Yeah. Okay, so what's your opinion on this case? what is the social or politics cause of this for your perspective? 

Bryan：好的，我会尽可能清楚地回答这个问题。2004年，爱尔兰就婴儿公民身份问题进行了一次全民公投。公投让人们决定那些国籍不是爱尔兰的移民的孩子出生时是否具有爱尔兰公民身份。当时与美国一样，爱尔兰的制度是：任何在这片土地上出生的人都自动获得爱尔兰公民身份。而公投结果显示人们强烈要求修改宪法，79.8%的选民投票取消了宪法赋予的婴儿出生公民权。

Ok, I’ll answer the question as well as I can and as clearly as I can. In two thousand and four, there was a referendum on the Irish constitution on citizenship. The referendum asked the people to decide whether the children of immigrants who did not have Irish parents could still be citizens at birth. At that time, like the united states, Ireland operates a system whereby anybody born in the land was a citizen. The referendum result was very strongly about changing the constitution. 79.8 per cent of the voters voted to remove the constitutional right.

对于我们研究爱尔兰移民的人来说，解释这件事是个大问题。2004年公投显示出的是：爱尔兰人虽然支持移民，允许移民在这里工作，认为这对经济有好处；但他们似乎并不把移民视为爱尔兰人。所以这可能与我们的民族认同，国家认同有很大关系。而最近发生的Eric案例，与其他几个案例一起，显示出了爱尔兰人思想上的明显转变。

And explaining this has been perhaps a big question in all of us who write about migration in Ireland. So it encourages us to think of the following that Irish people were pro-migration to allow people to work here, good for the economy. But it did not seem they regarded immigrants as Irish people. So, it had a lot to do with maybe ethnic identity, our national identity. Now, the case of Eric, which has happened recently, and a couple of other cases as well, have demonstrated an apparent shift in thinking.

这种转变明显得到了公众的支持，高层的政客们也发表了强有力的声明来支持移民。以Eric的事件为例，Eric在Wicklow由他的母亲抚养长大，内阁的一位资深政治家也来自Wicklow，他叫是Simon·Harris，他是卫生部部长，他同时也是是Wicklow的议会议员。

And the shift of thinking has been quite a lot of public solidarity with a couple of cases. Also, senior politicians came out to say strong statements in support of those people. For example, in the case of Eric, the young boy who grew up with his Chinese mother in County Wicklow. And one of the senior politicians in the cabinet, um, Pascal Order? No, sorry, pardon me. It's Simon Harris, Simon harris, the minister for health, who is the member of parliament for Wicklow.

我听到他在广播中说，当时我在开车，我听到他在广播中说：那个男孩（Eric）和我一样出生在Wicklow，他和我一样是完全的爱尔兰人。这其实是对Eric一个非常有力的支持。不久，一家报纸进行了一项民意调查，调查结果表明，大部分民众支持调整爱尔兰法律中对出生公民权的限定。我认为，爱尔兰人看到的是非常具体的问题：移民的孩子在爱尔兰出生，长大，他们在这里上学，他们有和我们一样的爱尔兰口音，但由于父母的移民身份，他们竟然无法成为爱尔兰公民。

He said on the radio, I was driving, and I heard him say that that boy is as much from Wicklow as I am, which is a very strong statement to make. S-o soon after that, a newspaper conducted a poll and seemed to indicate that there was quite strong support amongst the people for reviewing the legislation. And I think that people were concerned about the very concrete problem, that there are indeed children who have grown up here. They have our Irish accent, they go to school here. But the constitution has made it difficult for them to become citizens because of their parents’ position.

这些儿童是爱尔兰社会的一部分，爱尔兰人不愿意看到这些儿童因其公民身份的问题而被驱逐出境。所以一名参议员，爱尔兰参议院的成员，来自工党的Ivana Bacik，她前不久提出了一项提案，希望修改法律，使得所有出生在爱尔兰的婴儿都具有公民身份。结果这个提案在参议院以高票通过（注：目前正在等待众议院审核）。尽管政府对此的立场不同，政府的观点是，没有其他欧洲国家这么做，我们这么做会导致无法控制的后果。但无论如何，这项即将在众议院被审核的议案很受公众的支持。在这个案例中，我看到了很多积极的意义。

Nevertheless, they are here in part of society and the people are very unhappy to see such children deported because of irregularities in their citizenship. So, a senator, a member of the Seanad of the Irish senate, Ivana Bacik proposed a motion, she is in the labour party, and that basically there be a new law passed that would provide for our entitlement to become an Irish citizen. There seems to be an incredible amount of strong support for this, although the government is basically coming up with a different argument on the government's argument is that no other European country does this, there would be consequences we cannot control, but nevertheless, there seems to quite a lot of popular sentiment also amplified in the political sphere, which is far basically reviewing the situation as somebody who studies migration, I see a number of welcome aspects.

具有积极意义的是，有很大一部分爱尔兰人希望移民成为社会的一部分。他们心中有对爱尔兰公民的定义，这个定义包括移民，更包括他们的子女。这无疑有利于社会凝聚。目前在爱尔兰展开的这个讨论与在英国围绕英国退欧展开的辩论有很大不同。目前，世界上其他地方的主流政治都在趋向保守：英国脱欧问题在很大程度上是关于移民的，法国或其他一些欧洲国家目前也采取了反移民的政策，而特朗普更是试图通过阻止移民，让“美国再次强大”。

What I welcome is the notion that a significant part of the Irish population wants to see migrants as part of society, that they have a vision of what our citizenship could be like, that includes people who are migrants also and especially their children. This is good for social cohesion. And the current debate that is playing out in Ireland is so very different than the kind of debate that is playing out in the united kingdom around Brexit, which is all about migration, or France or some other European countries where anti-immigrant politics is in the mainstream. And indeed the united states, where trump promises to make America great again by stopping immigration.

所以从Eric的事件中我看到了积极的一面。我不确定这件事一定会导致法律的改变，但我认为这体现出了爱尔兰与其他一些国家不同的地方。在许多国家，有相当多的反对移民和反对全球化的情绪，而爱尔兰则不同，爱尔兰在有意地接受全球化社会，例如，爱尔兰欢迎中国移民，也欢迎其他国家的移民，爱尔兰有意地与世界发生更多联系。而且这种观念似乎已经在整个爱尔兰社会形成了，在爱尔兰欢迎移民的情绪多于其他国家。换句话说，似乎大多数爱尔兰人都在像开放的政治家那样思考问题，而不是像那些害怕改变，害怕全球化的人一样思考问题。所以在爱尔兰的最近发生的事件中，确实可以看到一些不同寻常的东西。Eric的事情和它的结果对于爱尔兰这样一个小国家来说，意味我们已经决定了要继续全球化。全球化的观念已经不仅仅是一个经济决策，更是渗透入了爱尔兰的文化之中。

So I see positives here. I'm not sure that would result in a change of law, but I do see it as part of a situation that makes Ireland a little bit different than some other countries. In many countries, there is quite a lot of hostility to immigration and globalization, whereas Ireland is a relatively globalized society deliberately, for example, brings Chinese people in, deliberately wants to make those links, does so in other countries as well, and that it seems to be accepted across the community, more so than in other countries. So in other words, it seems like a majority of Irish people think the way cosmopolitan elite types think in other countries rather than like the way which people who are fearful of change, kind of fearful of globalization. So there seems to be something distinctive happening in the Irish case. And it's got a lot to do, I think, with the fact that we are a small country that has decided very deliberately to become globalized, that our national strategy is one of globalization, and that this isn't just an economic decision, but seems to have entered the culture in various ways.

樵北：您回答了我本来打算问的许多问题（笑）。

You answered many questions that I am going to ask.

Bryan：请问你想问的其他问题。

Ask other questions that you need.

樵北：好的，在您看来，恢复出生公民权的法案可以在众议院通过吗?据说政府并不希望它通过。我认为这也是很多中国移民所关注的问题。

Ok, do you think the law that reinstated birthright citizenship can be passed? I think it is said the government don't want it to be passed. I think this is the question that much Chinese immigration more care about. So what do you think?

Bryan：我不知道。修改法律的想法并非来自政府。现在的政府是少数党派的政府，如果你了解爱尔兰制定法律的过程你就会知道，现在这项法律由fine gael党提出，然后根据信心与供应协议（confidence andsupply agreement,），其他大的党派会在下议院中进行协商辩论。所以，我认为这个事件会影响爱尔兰政府处理个别案件的方式，会让更多的人对此产生同情，但我不确定法律是否能立即得到修改。

I don't know. The idea for the law has not come from the government. I mean, the government is a minority government. If you look at how legislation is generated in Ireland at the moment, it emerges from the government and from that's Fine Gael party, and then the other big political party in opposition, Fianna Fail, for what was called a confidence and supply agreement, which means they negotiate the laws and statutes that are coming. I think this will affect perhaps how the Irish state treats individual cases. I think it would allow for more expect to see in general sympathy for cases, but I don't know that we will get a change of law immediately.

我认为对于政客来说，有些案件比其他案件更能引发同情。涉及儿童的案件似乎激起了爱尔兰人的团结情绪，这种情绪不一定会发生在其他案件之中。我认为Eric的案件之所以能够引起巨大的社会反应，是因为这个案件涉及到了儿童。总之，我认为爱尔兰社会将会继续开放的态度，它将会继续欢迎欧洲的移民，继续有选择地向来自欧洲之外的国家的移民敞开大门。它尤其欢迎来自中国，巴西等国家的留学生以及来自菲律宾和印度等国家从事医疗保健等领域工作的移民。

I think some cases are much more sympathetic than others to politicians. Cases involving children seemed to provoke feelings of solidarity. it is not necessary that the other cases will be treated in the same way. I think that this is very much about children and this debate. So, I think the Irish would continue to behave pretty much as it behaves in terms of being open to migration from the European Union, being selectively open to migration from outside the European Union, where especially it encourages student migration such as from the people's republic of China, Brazil and also labour migration in select areas such as healthcare from the Philippines and some other countries like India.

我知道除了技术移民之外，在爱尔兰的社会之中还有许多在困境之中的移民，他们有的是没有证件的非法移民，他们随时有被驱逐出境的危险。他们会躲避政府，他们对当局持怀疑态度，他们害怕政府，这也让他们更容易受到利益侵害。我想在21世纪，总有这样的情况在发生。我认为，爱尔兰与欧洲有共同的旅游区这一事实，会对爱尔兰这次法案修改的事情产生影响。（注：若爱尔兰成功修改法律赋予婴儿出生公民权，意味着也赋予了婴儿欧盟公民的身份，这涉及到其他欧盟成员国的利益。）所以，这件事情的结果最终会在一个合理的范围之内，因为我们在爱尔兰所做的会影响到其他欧盟国家。所以我想说，这个事件可能不会带来太多的政策变化，它带来的是一种社会范围内对移民的共情。

So I think with the exception of skilled migrants coming in, I think below that, there are categories of migrants who face predicaments there, sometimes irregular migrants that don't have paperwork, and people like that are at risk of deportation. And what people that are also hiding from authorities. They are there's a suspicious of authorities, their fearful, they are exploited often more easily because of that. I think I think in the twenty-first century, you're always going to have some people with those sorts of problems. I think that what Ireland will, in general, is affected by the fact that we have common travel areas with Europe. So there would always have to be a sense. What do we do in Ireland is in effect what happens elsewhere. So I would sort of say we have maybe not that much policy change, but a sympathetic tone.

这也显示出，一些个别案例如果能够得到媒体的关注，就会产生很大的社会效益。但Eric的事件还牵涉到了其他问题，我和朋友们讨论过，比如Eric的困境在于让他回到中国是不可行的，一是他没有在中国生活过，二是他在中国没有公民身份。对于他自己的家庭来说，Eric的案例是一个非常复杂的案例。我也知道，中国不允许有双重国籍，所以如果被剥夺了爱尔兰国籍或其他国家的国籍，中国人的情况会很困难。你不可能在获得爱尔兰国籍的情况下不失去你的中国国籍。失去中国国籍是很多中国人不愿意看到的事情。所以我觉得Eric的情况很不寻常，因为他的父母是决定长期居住在爱尔兰的中国人，他们没有可以回到中国的选择。

So individual cases, especially if you get media attention, might be fine. but I think I know there are other questions I have and I was talking to friends about this, which is that the big case of Eric especially was that he was not viable for him to go back to China because he'd never been in China. He wouldn't have been recognized as a citizen in China. That was a very complicated case in his own family situation. And I also understand that dual citizenship that is taking out Irish citizenship maybe alongside the citizenship of another country is a problem for Chinese people. you could not take out Irish citizenship without losing you're Chinese. And that's something that you would not be willing to do. So it strikes me that the case of Eric is an unusual one in the sense that his parents are family decided to live in Ireland. They don't have an option of returning to China.

现在重要的是有制度能够规范这样的情况。在爱尔兰，我们有一个庞大的华人社区。华人们互相组成家庭，孩子在这里长大，但他们不一定会像其他民族一样申请爱尔兰公民身份，因为他们担心自己可能未来会想要返回中国，他们希望保留这种选择。所以他们保持长期居住的状态不是去争取公民身份。我想，要解决这个问题，中国的法律和爱尔兰的法律都需要有变化。

And that this is about making sure that's regularized. There is a large community of Chinese in Ireland who are families and growing up, but they are not necessarily going to takeout Irish citizenship like other nationalities, because they are worried that maybe they want to return and they want to keep that option open. So they will look for maybe regular status rather than citizenship. And I think that is probably the that's as much to do with Chinese law as Irish law. 

樵北：我读了你的书《爱尔兰的移民与社会变革》

I read your book, immigration and social change of Ireland.

Bryan：那是本老书了，这里有一本我新出的书。（指向桌上一本书）

I know it's an old book. there's a new book.

樵北：好的，我没有找到这本新的。

Okay, I didn't find this book.

Bryan：你可以拍个照，到时候用作你的报道。

Take a photograph of that for your broadcast

 Bryan Fanning教授的新书

樵北：没问题。当面对现实，政府在选择移民政策会面对很多困境或冲突，比如福利分配问题。在你的这本书中，你提到了种族裙带主义（ethnic nepotism）理论，该理论是排外主义的，认为更多的社会多样性意味着每个人更少的福利。您在书中反对这种观点，您的立场是什么呢？

Okay, no, probably no problem. So, um, facing the reality, there are many dilemmas or conflicts in the issue of immigration policy, such as distribution on welfare. In your book of you mention the theory of ethnic nepotism which argued that more diversity means less welfare. You opposed to that, and what is your standpoint?

Bryan：这个问题是很复杂的，这是一个非常大的思想倾向，尤其是在右翼之中。我指的不是极右翼，而是自由主义中的右翼，他们反对移民，反全球化思想，这种情况已经出现在了美国和英国。这些人的观点是：国家应该把社会福利留给自己的公民，确保福利不会涉及非公民，例如医疗保健、社会津贴等福利。

it's complicated. And this is a very big idea that is has been taken up in particular by right-wing, not far-right, but liberals who have embraced anti-immigration, anti-globalist ideas in America and in the united kingdom in particular. What such people argue is that you should reserve the welfare state for citizens, and you deliberately ensure that it does not go to non-citizens, such as health care, social welfare.

他们这样做是想要依靠排外的公民身份建立具有凝聚力的社会。但是这其中也有民粹主义政治的原因。我对这样的观点并不认同，这种理论总希望证明，普通人本能地会有那样的倾向（去反对移民）。在某种程度上这没错，人们总会对他们觉得相似的人感到亲近团结，比如中国人看到中国人自然会更亲近。所以，我接受这一点，但是我认为，以此为出发点去制定公共政策和移民政策是错误的，尤其是在一个多民族社会中。

And the reason you do this is essentially to build social cohesion around citizenship. But also it is about populist politics that are often anti-immigrant as well. My engagement with that particular set of ideas is not that I agree with those ideas. Those ideas purport to demonstrate a theory where people behave like that in general. And it is true up to a point that people will always express solidarity towards people they feel similar to, such as Chinese for Chinese. Sowe accepted that's there but the idea that you should deliberately encourage it as a public policy does not always make sense, especially if you have a multi-ethnic society.

因此，我认为种族裙带主义理论是需要纠正的。这种理论的问题是，举个例子，就像是爱尔兰人先是说我们欢迎移民，然后当谈到医疗卫生福利的时候，爱尔兰人突然改口因为你是中国人不是爱尔兰人，所以你不能去医院。这当然是错误的。

So, I see ethnic nepotism as a tendency that needs to be corrected as a problem. The problem with ethnic nepotism that to say you're welcome here in the country, but then they say, now need to go to healthcare, you know you shouldn't, you are Chinese, you are not Irish shouldn't go to the hospital. My view that's wrong.

如果你能想的更深的话，你可以从社会凝聚力的角度来思考，社会凝聚力建立在社会全体成员之上的。基于种族身份而歧视少数群体，这种思想很容易在的政治领域出现。这种情况在中国也存在，在世界各地都有发生。所以种族裙带主义其实是一种趋势，在我十年前写的这本书中，我非常担心爱尔兰会像在其他欧洲国家一样出现这种政治思想。而现在，在某种程度上，英国这样的福利国家已经走上了那条道路。

So if you get more sophisticated than that, you should sort of think in term of an idea of social cohesion is for everybody in society. it's quite easy to flow politics that are discriminatory towards people on the basis of ethnic identity. And of course, that existing china as it does in other places. It happens around the world. So the idea to have ethnic nepotism is a tendency. Now, in the book that I wrote about ten years ago, I was quite worried that these ideas would become embedded in Ireland as they have in other European countries. And to some extent, the welfare state in the United Kingdom has gone that way.

英国新工党的戈登·布朗(Gordon Brown)早在特朗普之前10年就说过：“英国的工作只给英国人”。这就是本土主义（保护主义）。而对我来说，我认为当我们讨论公民身份这些问题的时候，需要考虑到我们是一个多元社会。因此，如果爱尔兰是一个能够包容中国人，波兰人和世界其他地区移民的多元化的社会，我们必须有一种能够反映这一点的意识形态和社会实践，因为，在爱尔兰的中国移民生活得好，这是我们的利益所在。

You have people such as Gordon Brown, who was new labour, saying, you know, British jobs for British people ten years before trump. So this idea that it's nativist. and to me, I have I favour ideas of citizenship and debates about the community that takes into account the diversity community. So if Ireland is a diverse community that includes Chinese people as well as people from Poland and elsewhere, we need to have an ideology and a set of practices that reflect that, because of itis in our interest that the Chinese here do well.

就像波兰人生活得好也是我们的利益所在一样，他们有工作，不失业，他们健康，没有生病，这都对我们的社会有益。这就是我从社会政策的角度来看待这一问题的方式，因此我们在意移民的孩子是否能生活得好。因为这社会需要下一代人爱尔兰人，就像Eric。

It is our interest that polish people do well, that they were in work and not unemployed, that they are healthy and not sick. That's how I view it from social policy terms so that it is our interested that the children of migrants do well. Because there's the next generation in this society, such as Eric and so on

裙带主义在社会政策中鼓励基于国籍的种族歧视倾向，我在书里谈到了这个想法，但这个词并不是我发明的。当我在十年前想这件事的时候，我觉得裙带主义当时没有出现在爱尔兰，但是将来可能会在爱尔兰出现。实际上在过去十年中我们可以看到，欧洲国家和美国的民族主义再次抬头。这种民族主义倾向有些类似于种族裙带主义，比如在美国，特朗普对移民的回应便是民族主义同时也是种族裙带主义的。特朗普说为了美国，为了让美国人更有尊严，我们要把移民阻止在边境。而你知道，英国采取了更强烈的反移民反应，英国脱欧了。

So I think nepotism was an idea for talking about a tendency to encourage discrimination within social policy on the basis of citizenship or ethnicity. And I floated the idea, I didn't grow up with the term, I didn't invent it. But when I came up with a ten years ago, it seemed to be maybe not necessary for applying to Ireland, but it might in the future apply to Ireland. What seems to happen in the last ten years is that nationalism in European countries and in the united states has risen again. There's something like ethnic nepotism, very much as part of the united states and trump era response to migration. It's for Americans make Americans grace, you know, stop them at the borders at, you know, Britain taking much more strongly anti-migrant responses with Brexitand so on.

所以我认为现在发生在很多国家里的情况正是裙带主义。从我的角度看来，一个好的社会，一个民主的社会，是一个将社会凝聚力建立在一个多元社区上的的社会。如果你有一个多元化的社区，你就不能再说我们是公民而他们不是。我常常担心种族裙带主义，因为这种想法不仅仅是种族主义的情绪和仇外心理的显现，它也往往对社会结构和国家体系造成影响，将种族主义构建在社会结构之中。

So I think that's part of what's going on in a number of countries, I think from the point of view of what would be in my view, a good society, which would also be my view, a democratic society, is that social cohesion has to be built around a wide definition of community. If you have a diverse community, you can't you shouldn't be floating ideas that just say we the people are this bit, not that bit. I worry about it because that kind of thinking is both a result of racism and xenophobia, but it also tends to build more racism and xenophobia into structures and systems.

所以我会担心。在任何国家中人们总是更接受自己的公民，不同国家的公民之间总会有某种程度的团结，因为世界就是这样运转的。所以我们接受这一点，但是，如果你在一个多元化的社会中，利用这种思想玩弄人们的情绪以谋求政治利益，这是非常危险的，这会把国家带入黑暗的地方。我认为美国目前就在出现这种情况，而英国也陷入了相当大的麻烦。实际上，很多麻烦都是由政治阶层制造的。所以也许媒体并不像普通人想得那样糟糕。

So I would be concerned about it. but nevertheless, there would be always in any country instances whereby we favour citizens over non-citizens. And there would obviously be a degree of expected solidarity between citizens in some country because that is how the world works. So we accept that. But at the same time, if you have a diverse society, it's dangerous. I think in my view, to play politics with this because can bring you into some dark places. I think the united states is in that space at the moment. I think Britain is going to into some considerable trouble. And a lot of that trouble is being generated by people in the political classes. And maybe the media not necessary what ordinary people think they do. 

所以，现在的好消息是，目前没有一个爱尔兰政客将爱尔兰的问题归咎于移民。这样的政客在英国，在美国，在世界其他地方，但是不在爱尔兰，那样的政客制造的紧张局势会使得移民的生活变得困难。或许我的回答称不上有条理，但我的基本想法就是：政治家玩弄人们的想法和意识形态是危险的，而爱尔兰目前的情况还不错。

So the good news is no Irish politicians blaming migrants for Ireland’s troubles. they are in Britain and they are in the united states and they are in other countries as well. So those tensions make things difficult for migrants to live and get by. I'm far from having reasonable discussions about all of these issues. But I think basically playing with those ideas and ideologies is dangerous. I think Ireland is doing ok at the moment.

樵北：在我看来，爱尔兰在接纳不同移民群体方面的努力确实值得称赞。接下来是一个理论问题，在你书的结尾，你问到这样一个问题：社会融合的定义是什么。我认为这非常有趣，因为一方面，社会融合指外来群体能够在不放弃自己的文化身份的情况下参与到社会中；而另一方面，我们期待不同文化的合并以及同化。您怎么看?

It seems to me that Ireland is very credible and remarkable in embracing different immigration groups. And here's a theoretical question. at the end of your book. You ask a question of what is integration? I think it's very interest because on, one hand, we believe integration means the ability to participate in a society without having relinquished his own culture identity. On the other hand, we expect the assimilation of different culture. what's your opinion?

Bryan：对于文化同化这个问题，我认为应该以批判的眼光看待，比如中国对待少数穆斯林族群的方式，便是有文化同化的目的在。

I think it I think we could look at China quite critically about some of this at the moment in terms of, say, that treatment of-of same Muslim ethnic groups in China, the idea that there has to be a cultural assimilation.

但是我认为社会的融合是有“领域”的区别的。比如，对于爱尔兰社会中的波兰人或者中国人来说，爱尔兰政府希望的是他们有高的就业率，而不是在文化上达成一致。如果他们大量失业，那就是社会融合的失败，是社会的失败。我们希望移民能够融入社会的各个领域，比如让他们更好地融入教育，融入就业，以及他们的下一代能有更好的发展机会。可见，在社会的这些功能领域中，社会融合的意义实际上是非常实际的，过多地关注文化的差异，或者去追求文化的一致反而是不可取的。所以社会融合的意义在于，保证每个人都可以在他们的生活中得到进步和发展。大多数来到这个国家的移民，他们并不想成为爱尔兰人，这很好，没什么。他们有自己的人生计划，他们可能只是想为自己和家人而去努力挣钱。他们可能只是想找份工作，接受教育，积累经验。

I think big integration is around, how would I put it like this, domains. if you have a migrant population, let's just say they're polished, or Chinese. You want them to be in work nothing unemployment. So if a big number are unemployed, that's a problem. They're not integrated into the economy. So you want people to be integrated into the various spheres of society, to be meaningful including societies that the children have a chance next generation, integration into education, integration into employment. So there are these functional areas of society that integration needs to take care of in a very practical sense, and worrying too much about culture in relation to this is a distraction. It just gets in the way of the work you need to do to ensure that basically, people can flourish in their ordinary lives. Most migrants come to the country, they don't want to become Iris. fine. They have a plan, they want to live a life for themselves and their family. They want to maybe get jobs, get education, experience, and ideally want people's lives to be successful.

反过来说，如果你以文化的借口攻击移民，不允许移民参与我们的经济发展或是进入我们的学校，声称移民必须能够在文化上与本地人一致，这就会产生问题。现在在西方国家中，很多政治家对穆斯林的文化特别戒备，正是犯了这个错误。这可能是破坏性的。我的意思并不是反对适应文化，但我认为，适应价值观才是更重要的。

If you impose a cultural attack on things and say you cannot participate in our economy or in our schools, unless you behave a certain way culturally, that creates a problem. A lot of the politics around culture in the west is they're obsessed at the moment with Muslims in particular. And that can be destructive. I mean it's not that there shouldn't be an adaptation to culture, but I think in my view, it should be more adaptation to values.

这些价值观包括，举个例子，法治精神，它人们按照法律的约束去行为。所以，你的衣着服装并不重要，你的行为方式也不重要，重要的是价值观。

Values include the rule of law in this country, their important values that people behave, the laws of society and so on. It doesn't necessarily matter that you wear certain clothes, you shouldn't have to matter that you do.

但是有一点，如果你想在爱尔兰取得成功，你必须会说英语，这一点非常重要。因为除非你会说英语，否则你不太可能在事业上获得成功。如果你不会英语，你很可能在工作中被剥削，而你没有别的途径去从事别的的行业。

But it is very important that if you are to succeed in Ireland, that you're able to speak the English language. Because unless you're able to speak English, you are you're unlikely to be able to succeed in the economy. You know, you're likely to be exploited some maybe in a public place of work where, you know, you have you have no access to anything else.

如果你不会说英语，你也会更容易受到歧视。所以我要说，语言是非常重要的。从长远来看，运用公民身份也很重要。我认为这一点对中国移民来说将是一个挑战。你们的社区群体很大，如此庞大的社区群体应当对这个国家的政策有发言权。你们应该参与国家决策。而除非你们投票，否则政治家和别的社区是听不到你们声音的。我认为这就是目前华人群体的困境，你们的群体很大，你们应当参与政策决策等事务。

They also would like to be discriminated against if you can't speak the language. So to me, things like language are quite important. Citizenship is important in the longer term. It will be a challenge for Chinese community here, I think, because unless if you have a significant community and the Chinese community is pretty significant, that they should have a voice in how the country is wrong. You should be involved in the decision making. Politicians and others will not listen to you unless you have a vote now. And I think the predicament of the Chinese community is that it's a significant community, so you want to see Chinese people working in policing in other areas.

华人应当成为这个国家的一部分。如果政客们认为中国人不是社会的一部分，那实际上意味着中国社群的利益不会得到支持。在民主社会中，团体的参与是很重要的价值，因为这意味着社会可以听到你的声音，了解到你的经验。我认为这很重要。

You want to see them part of the state possible. but if politicians think Chinese people are not citizens among folks. That means that the interest of the Chinese community may not be supported in important ways into the future. But in democratic theory, there is a sort of a value to society if groups participate because you bring in your voice and your experience. And that to me would be quite important too.

这种声音和经验将成为总体决策的一部分。我们的社会应该从不同的群体中倾听和学习。所以这就是理论层面上的我的意见。

that voice and that experience will be part of a decision making In general. words that we should be listening to and learning from look different communities. So that to me would be my answer of more ideology version of us my perspective. 

樵北：您说的对，政治参与确实非常重要。

Yeah, it is important to participate in political affairs.

Bryan：实际上，华人完全可以加入我们的政党，以促进他们的商业利益或其他利益。在爱尔兰，你不必成为一个公民才具有投票权。即便你只有长期居住的身份，你也可以在当地政府选举中投票。在当地选举中登记投票是一件很有益的事，特别是在都柏林这样一个华人聚集的城市。这是一件非常简单的事情，但是很有益，这样做会让你能够站在更高的角度思考地区问题，当地的政府官员也会有兴趣为中国社区做更多的事情。所以这些事情很重要。我知道动员中国移民登记投票是非常困难的，因为他们不习惯参与政治，但是如果可以做到的话，这是值得的。

but there's no reason why members of the Chinese community couldn't join our political parties to advance their business interests or other interests. you know you don't know you have to be a citizen to do so. you can vote in the local government elections, even if you are at the base of your residency. So you know, maybe that's a good thing to do. And especially maybe in a city like Dublin where the significant Chinese community gathered it, maybe if Chinese were registered to vote in the local elections. Very simple thing to do, then you would be able to that I think at a local level, neighbourhood politicians might be interested in doing more for the Chinese community. So those kinds of things do matter. I think it's very difficult to mobilize people to register to vote, you know if especially people aren't used to doing it, but it's worth doing if it can be accomplished.

樵北：中国移民并不是爱尔兰最大的移民群体，但仍然有将近1万人口，那么…

Chinese immigration is not the biggest integration group in Ireland, but still has a population of nearly, I think, ten thousand?

Bryan：这个数字很有趣，因为中国移民在爱尔兰的总人数一直有争论。我可以在我这本最新的书中找到最近的统计。（开始翻书）

It's funny with Chinese numbers the numbers of always being disputed with the Chinese. I can find you figure in the book because I I have the figures, I have the most recent figures in the book.

我书中有一个部分是关于华人社区的，讲到华人移民来到爱尔兰的不同方式。从20世纪60年代开始，就有来自香港新界的人来到英国和这里从事食品生意等等。所以从我出生起，爱尔兰就一直有中国人。刚开始华人的数目很小，然后随着亚洲“四小龙”经济的出现，华人的数目一直在上升。我看看这里有没有具体的数字。（翻书中）

 I have a section on the Chinese community from ways of Chinese immigration to Ireland. from the nineteen sixties there would have been people from the new territories who came to the United Kingdom, come over here to work in food businesses and so on. So there's always been a Chinese presence here since I was born. You know, and as small and then with the city tiger economy than the numbers do rise. I'm just seeing if there are any numbers here.

中国驻爱尔兰大使馆曾说爱尔兰有6万中国人，但是我认为这个数字远远超过了实际的华人数目。

I mean the Chinese government in times of the embassy here of claim that there were sixty thousand Chinese, that figure is way above what anybody in Ireland thinks of it to be.

樵北：这个数目是怎么得到的？

why would they say that?

Bryan：我认为他们把中国留学生和来来往往的中国人都算上了，我看看能不能找到具体的数字。（翻书中）2006年的人口调查是一万一千人。而仅在2004年就发放了一万五千份学生签证。所以爱尔兰一直都有大量的中国留学生，有人留下来，有人离开。抱歉，我头脑中一直没有中国移民的数字。（停止翻书）

I think this the count students and others and people coming and going. I'm just trying to find the figure. two thousand six census was eleven thousand, I mean about fifteen thousand student visas were given in two thousand and four alone. So there's quite a large student population here all the time, as do people stay or do people go onwards go off somewhere else afterwards, or do they stick around. I apologize. I don't have a sense of the number the current number here at all.

樵北：没关系。爱尔兰中国移民的生存状态怎么样？他们最大的困难是什么？

It’s fine. What is the living state of Chinese immigration in Ireland? What is their biggest challenge?

Bryan：目前没有迹象表明华人社区正在经历什么困难。不过，中国人在爱尔兰面临的一个问题是近乎隐形。北爱尔兰的情况还好些，因为有华人组织，我记得那个组织是一位嫁给了英国人的香港女士成立的。因为在贝尔法斯特有很多来自香港新界的移民，华人数目比较多。

there's no indication that the Chinese community are experiencing significant problems. one of the problems the Chinese face in Ireland, in general, a near invisibility. If you were in Northern Ireland, it was actually along kong born woman. She married an English man. She set up a Chinese organization in Belfast and there was a lot more second wave new territories, people as well. There. So and now there are new waves of people who come, mostly students or as tech workers, and so on and so forth. 

而在爱尔兰，华人群体可以说近乎隐形。我们不知道华人社群的情况。政府不知道他们感觉安不安全，他们的经济状况如何。因为没有人组织政治活动，站出来告诉我们华人需要什么。而实际上，爱尔兰政府的决策是由来自社群组织的的声音决定的。这种情况很大程度上是因为语言障碍。所以，如果你问我最重要的是什么，我会说学习当地的语言。

the community, the invisible enough in Irish society. That's the thing is we don't know a lot. We don't know how well people are, how safe they feel, how well they're doing economically. there nobody out there championing their calls are saying the Chinese communities need this and that. But what we need to do about this so in a sense were absolutely and utterly dependent on voices from the community and it is a language barrier. If you ask me where am I kind of insistent? I I think learning the language of a society is crucial.

这就产生了各种各样的问题。比如对我来说，华人社区有点神秘。在爱尔兰，没有人做过关于中国社群的有意义的研究，我们没有优秀的博士生在研究中国社群。我们需要更多的研究。目前，我们所能做的只有猜测，看看人口普查结果，但是我们很清楚很多在爱尔兰的中国人是政府看不到的。这些就是挑战。

it kind of creates all sorts of problems. Uh, but the Chinese community is a bit of a mystery to someone like myself. Nobody has done any significant pieces of research and the Chinese community, we don't have good PhDs now you that are kind of really gone into things. we sort of do need more research. Yes. You know I I think all we can do is kind of guess and look at the census and you know, and some people are invisible. So these are challenges, these are challenges.

我也知道有一些华人组织或者华人报纸之类的东西，让我们能够看到一点点华人社区的情况。但整体情况是，关于华人社区，我们能找到的东西少之又少。我们关心的问题是中国人认为这个爱尔兰社会有什么问题？中国人关心什么? 这就是为什么政治参与，无论以何种形式被组织，有助于社会团结和融合的原因。我认为这是一个很大的挑战。如果你回到三十年前，四十年前，你会发现爱尔兰的少数族群社区内部是连接非常紧密的，你可以和波兰社区直接对话，和美国社区直接对话。而今天新的趋势出现了，那就是移民从他们国家的各个不同的地方来到爱尔兰，他们不再紧紧和自己的族群联系在一起，他们让我们感觉看不见了。都柏林不是一个很大的城市，但它仍然在反映这种趋势。

I know that there are Chinese organizations and China today or newspapers and things like that. There are things that we can find out bits about the Chinese community, t I suppose the question we want is what the Chinese people in our and saying the issues are, what are their concerns? And this is why basically participation, however that can be managed, is part of the integration process.  I think there's a big challenge. I mean if you went back maybe thirty years, forty years ago, you would see that ethnic minority community tend to bond around one another. So you could talk about the Chinese community of the polish committee of the Irish American community. What we see now in the cities of the world and Dublin is not a very big city is still reflects, this tendency is we see people coming in from large numbers of places. they're not bonding all the time to their own ethnic groups, so they're kind of become invisible.

有一个术语描述这种复杂性：超级多样性（super diversity）。总之，在某种意义上，中国社区对于爱尔兰的决策者和政策制定者是相当隐形的。好消息是，爱尔兰对中国社群并出现没有什么偏见。虽然种族主义和偏见作为一种心理一直存在于社会之中，但目前还没有出现来自官方层面的偏见。坏消息是，如果中国社区一直没有声音出现，没有社区领袖能够站出来，那么中国社区的需要和利益将很难在爱尔兰得到保护和支持。我认为这是一个挑战。

there's a term out there called superb diversity. I mean it talks about the complexity of this. so in a sense, the Chinese communities, communities are pretty invisible to decision makers and policy makers. And the good news is that there is not a lot of prejudice towards them. Although there will, of course, be racism and prejudice all the time, not from the officially. The bad news is that it's difficult to see the needs and interests of the community can be supported through the state without a voice, and without community leaders, some are coming forward. And I I think that's a bit of a challenge.

樵北：您认为社区领袖是必要的么？

Do you think that a leader of the community is necessary?

Bryan：我不认为中国社群能够出现一个单一的社群领袖，因为我可以想象爱尔兰的华人社区是非常多元化的，他们来自中国不同的省份。我只去过中国一次，但我知道，与爱尔兰相比，中国十分巨大，相比而言爱尔兰是一个非常非常小的地方。

I don't know the single leader of the community as possible, because I could imagine the Chinese community in Ireland is very diverse who are a different range of provinces in China. I've been to China only once. obviously compared to Ireland, it's a ginormous place and Ireland is a very, very small place.

所以，我们更需要的是会说中文的学者以及会说中文的专家，他们可以工作在政府机构，卫生保健领域，学术界以及商界，他们能够帮助我们理解爱尔兰的华人社群中在发生什么。因为我们现在很缺乏这样的人。我很期待优秀的中国学者，他们能够研究爱尔兰的华人社区，可以和华人交流，可以向他们学习，可以写论文，可以做研究。

I think we need we need Chinese language speaking academics and experts in the head in health care, in social science and academia as well as in business or just to basically help us understand whats going on. Yeah, I'm not sure we have enough of that at the moment. I mean I would love to know there was a really good say Chinese academic who was researching the Chinese communities in Ireland to talk to and to learn from, who write papers and who could do research, who could speak the language and all those things.

我知道我们校园里有孔子学院，也和中国有很多商业往来。但是我们知道的还是远远不够。我并不是说我们应该知道所有的事情，但这些是重要的事情。我们对中国社群的不了解，也和爱尔兰的政治风格有关。我的意思是，爱尔兰不会对国家里的特定族群进行非常严厉的干预，爱尔兰不会通过强有力的法律去干预民众的行为。

I mean I know we have the Confucius on campus and we have all these business arrangements. but I mean We just don't know enough. And I think I mean, it's not that we should know everything, but it's stuff. it's also the style of the Irish state. I mean compared to the Chinese state, it’s a very different endeavour. Our state is not going to take very heavy-handed interventions into a particular ethnic group there. You know, it's not going to create very powerful laws about behaving one way or another.

爱尔兰政府对移民的唯一干预就是决定你是否能够留下来得到签证。但除此之外，爱尔兰不会做很多去干涉移民的生活方式。但这样的问题是，如果有一些社群出现了问题或困难，除非有政治力量保护他们，爱尔兰政府是不能提供多少帮助的。我们的难题就在这里，我们不知道在爱尔兰的中国人是否正在面临着某些问题和挑战。我经常在外面看到一些中国人，他们大概三十多岁的样子，带着孩子。能看出来，他们在这里生活，他们的孩子会在这里长大。一个好的社会应该有所行动，所以我认为在积极的层面上，我们需要从华人社区听到更多。

I mean it would big decisions it makes whether you can stay or whether you should go. but beyond that, it's also not going to do an awful lot to insist that people behave certain ways in society. But here's the problem. If there are groups who are having problems or difficulties, unless there's some sort of politics around it, it's not going to do much to help. And I suppose the issue for us is, are there particular problems and challenges facing Chinese people in Ireland? You know, I see ever so many people out and about and they're in their thirties and they've got their little children with them. And clearly they're going to live some life here and their children are growing up here. An acting society should be doing and I think at that level a positive level, we need to hear more from the Chinese community.

樵北：如果给爱尔兰华人一些建议，你会怎么说？

sir. do you have any suggestion for the Chinese immigration in Ireland?

Bryan：告诉别人该怎么做是很难的。我对中国有一些了解，中国在许多方面与我们的社会是完全不同的。然而我相信，在某些方面所有社会都是一样的。人们通过不同的团体参与社会决策越多，人们就越会了解社会是如何运作的。我有时候会担心，我看到那些在商店和我家附近工作的华人年轻人，我希望他们在五年后生活会更好。我希望他们的生活顺利。但还是那句话，我们没有足够的数据了解爱尔兰华人。我可以告诉你很多有关爱尔兰非洲人的事情，告诉你很多有关爱尔兰波兰人的事情，我曾与这些社区密切合作，并做过一些研究。但我无法告诉你关于爱尔兰华人的事情，我只有一些零星的线索，我需要从各种二手资料中找材料才能了解他们。

 I very find it hard to tell people what to do. I mean I know enough about china's know that it's a fundamentally different society in many ways to ours. but in some respects, all societies are the same. I think the more involved you are in different institutions that make decisions, the better it is, the more knowledgeable you are as to how society works. The battery can go for you in a sense. I see that younger people who work in shops and in my neighbourhood, I hope they're going to be all right in five years’ time. I hope their life works out for them. But honestly, we don't have enough data. I can tell you enough about African in Ireland, I can tell you enough about polish in Cleveland. I've worked with those communities quite closely and does a research. I cannot tell you about the Chinese experience except by clues, I pick up from reading things here and there. I cannot tell you. You have to ask a Chinese person about that.